His groundbreaking appearances at festivals and Bible weeks and his UK tours have established American KEVIN PROSCH as one of the most influential figures in worship and evangelism in Britain. He spoke to Martin Purnell and Mike Farrington.
What God is doing in Britain with a fresh wave of youth-orientated worship music is finally beginning to be noticed by the insular American Christian music scene. The US release of the video of the historic Champion Of The World event and the American launch of albums by Delirious? and Matt Redman will no doubt start demonstrating to the American Church that there are far more creative dimensions to worship music than those normally pursued by the soft pop/easy listening outpourings of America's major worship ministries. In many ways it is the wave of young British musicians who are pioneering contemporary worship that stylistically connects with today's teenagers while resonating both with a hunger to go deeper into God and an expectation that the Lord will indeed move in revival power. So it is somewhat ironic that the man who has been a towering influence on the Matt Redmans, Martin Smiths and the other UK musicians who have put worship back in the centre of the Christian music scene should be a grizzled American from Birmingham, Alabama.
In America's CCM scene Kevin Prosch is an unknown. His music isn't played on mainstream Christian radio, his albums aren't in the record racks and it's doubtful if most Nashville record execs would recognise his name. In Britain, however, thanks to frequent appearances at UK festivals and Bible weeks, and successful tours (his most recent with veteran Bryn Haworth), Kevin is a towering influence both on musicians and Britain's worshipping church at large. During his latest visit to Britain in November he visited United Christian Broadcasters in Stoke-On-Trent and was interviewed by both Martin Purnell and Mike Farrington. Here is a selection of their questions and his replies.
Mike: In recent meetings you've spoken a lot about truth and
getting beyond the hypocrisy that can be part of each of us. Tell us a
bit about that.
Martin: "It's a journey I've been on and
I feel at times I touch on it. In the past I've never let the Lord
into the dark side of my life, the times I'm not doing as well with
him. We all have secrets at times in our lives. I used to think in my
worship that's the last thing I can bring to God, whether it's lust,
or whether I've lied, or whatever it is. But I'm finding real
encouragement in being able to be honest, and truthful with God. He
sees those things anyway. Quite often during the worship it is a time
of repentance for me, to be able to say i am going to be truthful. You
see it anyway, God. I'm sorry for that thing this week.' So the
revelation of truth has taken on a new meaning for me."
Mike: What about the dimension of worshipping God when you're
not at a meeting?
Martin: "There are times when I would
be in the car and I feel him when I'm not feeling spiritual. I feel
him come through my heart and begin to touch me during the day; for no
particular reason I just feel his presence around me and on me.
Everyday in my walk with him - at some point in the day. I make it a
point, not as a religious act, but in my heart to want to touch God.
There are times I go for seasons where I'm not feeling very spiritual.
I go for days or weeks without having my time in the Word, just out of
discouragement or weakness. But I feel I still make it a point to say,
'Oh man, I missed our walk in the garden today' or 'are you still with
me' or 'Do you still love me?' I still need to feel accepted.
Sometimes it's like that, then sometimes it's suddenly out of nowhere
I'll see an orphan or an older lady crossing the street and something
just floods my soul with worship to God. Knowing that he loves them.
It's not like I'm sitting down every day and making worship - that
kind of life style - singing songs every day and worshipping that way.
It's something that rises up in my heart. I feel his presence really
strongly at different times."
Mike: Your ministry has a reputation for being very emotional,
you make yourself painfully vulnerable when you're on the
platform.
Martin: "For me personally I can't be
satisfied with doctrinal truth. My spirit craves for the emotional
side as well. By the time a musician has learned to play music for 20
years or so he begins to realise he can stir the emotions of people
and that's a tricky thing in worship because people say 'worship is in
the hands of God'. Yes it is but yet we're clay vessels that he uses
and you learn as a musician that you can manipulate the emotions of
people. When I realised that I went 'Wow, I can take the people
virtually anywhere.' Once you have their heart and the presence and
the anointing of God you can almost take people where you want to.
Music is such a powerful tool. Lucifer was the chief worship leader in
Heaven and now he's not allowed to enter the place we can every
morning, every day, instantaneously. He can only be an onlooker and
he's very jealous. I have a choice to take people into a place of
worship to a place of truth. The enjoyable side of that is also
knowing that he's chosen vessels like all of us to be able to enter
into a sacred place.
Mike: Owning up to failures in your spiritual life seems to be
a crucial part of what you bring to a congregation.
Martin: "One of the problems I have is unlived truth. More and more
I feel I'm trying to communicate with something I've never experienced
in my life because it's a walk of faith. So I'm not sure how to do it.
In the early days I would say the systematic truths that look good to
people but when I walked away from the show I was not really walking
in that myself. I'd give a talk on something that's very intimate but
not be walking there. So I'm trying to talk about my own experience. I
was taught just to stand ridged and not to encourage the emotional
side. I wait quite a while when I worship because it's a tremendously
emotional thing. Then I began to realise that in Jeremiah I it speaks
of keeping all the tears in a bottle that God stores up and that God
is a weeping God. Chris Bowater wrote a song called 'Now Is The Time
For Tears'. It's a song that's touched my heart and it's very
emotional to me. I think sometimes when we come into the presence of
God there's a heart thing - for me there's hardness in the heart
during the week and sometimes daily. So when I go to worship God, I
cry sometimes. I don't even know why I cry. I just feel his presence
so strong on me I'm so thankful his life still comes to find me every
day. In fact it shouldn't. But it does. This is reflected in a song
I've written with Bryn Haworth; it talks about so much grace. It says,
'I'm not prepared for so much grace to come to me/Why am I not able to
accept your love/Why do I feel I have to earn your love?/You always
push my heart and veil apart and place your fingers deep into my
heart/I'm not prepared for so much grace to come to me.'"
Mike: Are you at peace with yourself?
Martin:
"I'm just now getting to the place in my life of just being able to
accept who I am as a person and to push away all the unfulfilled
expectations that 1 thought I was going to be in music or just in my
life. And now I'm starting to take a look -'Okay, you're not like this
person, this is where your life really is" - and having to be
satisfied with that, compared to what every person dreams of being,
whether it's an incredible worshipper, worship leader or movie star or
whatever. And I'm having to take my life apart and realise what you
see is what you get now and I want to be pleased with that and when I
come into worship and I feel accepted now more and more, I'm learning
to open my heart up. There are tears, it's very emotional, not every
time, sometimes it's enjoyable, almost fun like experience, knowing
I'm accepted by the living God."
Mike: You've experienced a lot of controversy recently for
your use of ethnic instruments - instruments normally associated with
pagan cultures - in worship. Tell us a bit about that.
Martin: "I use the conk shell which was on the last track on 'Kiss
The Son'. I use it also on 'Journey Of Life'. The thing that has made
people wonder is the conk shell used to be a call for pagan worship.
We also use the didgeridoo, which was used by the Aborigines, and
sometimes it was used in their worship to call up pagan spirits. So
they say why do you use these instruments if they are pagan? I look to
my guitar and say. 'Well, the songs I played in the world on this
guitar did not in any way bring glory to God. At that time I hated
God. Then I gave my heart to the Lord and I took that same guitar and
wrote praises to God. So I guess when I got saved my guitar got saved
along with me. About the conk shell, there are several things - it's
the sound. I remember the first time I saw someone raise their hands
in church - I thought if there's anything that looks demonic it's
that. It scared me to death. But there I was six months later right on
the front row with my hands up. So the point I'm trying to make is,
that the things we see even hear, we make judgments on. We're not used
to some of the sounds of India, Australia, China where if they get
saved and God visited them, in their village, they would praise him on
their native instruments. The Bible says, 'Every nation, tribe and
tongue will come together to worship me.' And that not going to be
just a white boy playing an acoustic guitar that's going to be leading
everything. Also, concerning these instruments, there are different
sounds which communicate different emotions and I think that's what
God intended or he would have made everything that sounded like the
rain or he would have made every rain sound like the wind, and rain
sound like ocean or rain sound like rocks being beat together or a
guitar; but he gave us different sounds because it evokes
different emotions. If you look at King David suddenly there he was
with every instrument known to man, every drum, every cymbal, every
harp, every lyre and there came a stage in his life when he said, I
can't express myself enough. Go and bring me some of those marvellous
cedar trees so I can make some more instruments because I don't have
enough instruments to express myself.' Because David knew that
different tones and different tunings created different emotions. He
was really in touch with that so it's the same with me. I use on
'Journeys Of Life' Indians and Asians praising, saying their love for
God, or just different statements of how I love the earth. I use
different languages and instruments. It's all very powerful, it evokes
different emotions. It's wonderful to me."
Mike: I understand someone at Soul Survivor so objected to
what you were doing in worship that they threw a drink over
you?
Martin: "It was hot coffee. There were two guys in
the crowd and each had a cup and one was going one way and one was
going the other way and they caught the one guy. He was talking about
devil worship and being a hypocrite. He could be right on the
hypocrite part but the devil worshipper thing definitely not. All the
fuss was because it was a different instrumental style and some of the
kids were really getting into it. The other incident that occurred was
in the parking lot. I was pushed around by two other people. It was
basically about 'We don't need your kind of music here.'"
Mike: Were you surprised by the violence of such
reactions?
Martin: "I had a prophecy given to me a year
ago that I was more and more going to be harassed by people that are
possibly well meaning but are religious and it's happened on more than
one occasion, in the States, in Toronto. I try to look at myself to
see how I would respond.
Mike: What would you say is your major weakness?
Martin: "Sometimes I hate people. I don't even like being around
people, don't even like ministering to people sometimes. Yet in all my
weaknesses it still blows me away that the Lord doesn't feel that way
towards me. It puts a heart cry in me to say 'Lord, I really want to
love like you. Sometimes I detest being around people but you said let
the people come to me and those who are weak and downhearted.' It
almost makes me, not ashamed, but want to cry out even more 'God, make
me like you, because I'm not like you.' It's the weaknesses in my life
that cause me to cry out to God and creates worship in my heart. I am
doing this radio interview today - sometimes people think Kevin Prosch is the
music and all of the CDs and yet if only they could get inside my mind
and heart and see that those things really mean absolutely nothing
(though I am thankful for them) in comparison to what God has done in
my life. The success is only a fleeting moment. You have a great
concert then there you are alone in your room 30 minutes later. The
anointing fading from you and you're in touch with your humanity
because the anointing was never to lift you up. It was to touch the
people. Then you come in contact with the reason why you're really
called to be a servant. I always craved the anointing and used to say
'No Lord, don't take your anointing away from me.' As we get older we
begin to mature. God says, 'I never called you to be anointed; I
called you to be a servant. I called you to use this thing that you
feel, this emotional, spiritual, as it were, power and high. You can
enjoy that while it's on you, but remember it's never for you and if
you find your pleasure in serving the people more than being anointed,
you'll never be disappointed.' You can walk away from a meeting and
say, well, it maybe didn't feel very anointed but I served, and that's
what's he's called me to do, to serve.
Mike: You work in other areas apart from worship - evangelism
for instance.
Martin: "I had a vision of forming a band
a couple of years back called the Black Peppercorns for that very
purpose, to bring worship and evangelism together. And they go well."
Mike: How do you relate love songs and songs about loneliness,
about pain to evangelism and worship?
Martin: "Worship
has never been words that we sing. Words are just the vehicle that
carry the emotion to God. You don't know how to bring that emotion to
God so you'll take the words 'Jesus you are all together lovely" and
that evokes an emotion in a way to which your faith and your hope and
your disappointment can ride on those words up to God. Words are just
the medium; it's not the words themselves. I wanted to do one thing,
go into a bar and see the manifest presence of God. I'm learning more
and more that it can be in the words. There's a song I've written, it
talks about loneliness called 'Please'. It's the first track on the
Black Peppercorns. 'Please don't leave, whisper some peace to
me/Please don't go, give me some hope today/Is there anyone out there
at all that understands the loneliness, understands the pain?' And yet
I'm singing these songs exactly like I would 'We Give You The Highest
Praise' of 'Kiss The Son'. Whatever the songs might be, I'm singing
this same song although it's not saying anything about God; it's
talking about pain and loneliness. When David wrote songs, incredible
songs of 'Lord I feel your presence and your power' he also sang
'Lord, don't take your spirit from me' and I don't think that was a
happy song. He had this vehicle of being able to sing about his pain,
not only his triumphs but his weaknesses."
Mike: Is Revival coming?
Martin: "We're such
insecure, fragile creatures. I found myself wanting this huge Revival
to take place and yet there's so much sickness in my own heart. The
joy of the Lord is there but then there's things that block me from
loving people at times. I kinda worry, like, 'Gosh God, if you brought
me into revival around me, I could do the stuff.' There's still people
I don't touch, the people I look at and judge. I think everything
that's happened up to this point from Toronto to Brownsville to all
over the world I would like to see that we would get healed of things
that are blocking us from truly reaching out to people. It's easy for
me to reach out to people when I'm on this radio show and I'm feeling
spiritual in this atmosphere. It's different when I'm alone and no one
sees me. I would pray that in Revival. God would open up our hearts
more to love, to what true love is because there's going to be lots of
fish to clean. When there's a massive amount of people getting saved.
It would be very intense. It would be very disappointing if we're
unable to love them in every sense of the word. So, I don't know what
it's going to look like. I just know that hopefully it looks like that
there's people loving people who are weak and people who are loving
people who will still disappoint them. Are you still willing to love
after you've been disappointed? Half of my walk has been seeing people
who have disappointed me, and I have to make the choice. I think
revival starts in the heart. It is about preaching the gospel. It is
about healing the sick and the broken hearted. But I think that there
is a track that Jesus walked with his disciples for a season first, so
that they could get their own lives healed up and I think that's
happening now in the body of Christ. Hopefully through this movement
of healing and us coming in contact with our emotions it's okay for a
man or woman to cry, not only in worship but in their every day lives.
I'm seeing healing taking place and that's a start."
The opinions expressed in this article are not necessarily those held by Cross Rhythms. Any expressed views were accurate at the time of publishing but may or may not reflect the views of the individuals concerned at a later date.