The Christian music world, Madonna, and speaking in tongues. Just some of the topics touched on when Tony Cummings went to talk to CLIFF RICHARD.

So, for instance on the new Larry Norman album which is a creative return to form for him, even though there might be a couple of absolute cracker songs on there, you wouldn't consider doing cover versions of them?

"I wouldn't think about doing them on a Christian album. But I might cover them on a secular album, because the secular world buys half a million of my albums, and the Christian world buys 20 thousand. So in that respect, nobody in the world knows Larry Norman except us Christians. We're the only enlightened people. Larry's probably the best Christian artist that ever lived as far as I'm concerned. I mean just the best. But for me, I was disappointed he didn't chase a secular career, not a secular career, a commercial career - I must stop using that term. I once heard a minister say 'there's only one thing that's secular, and that's sin'. Therefore, when I talk about my commercial career it means it's not overtly Christian in terms of spiritual music. However, t can't stop my career being Christian, because I am a Christian. Anyway, back to Larry Norman. Larry decided not to chase a commercial career, and that's fine by me, if that's what he wanted to do. But I was disappointed, because I thought the world needed a counterpart to Paul Simon, as the man that comes up with all the answers. Paul Simon writes fabulous songs, but they are nearly all about questions, you know? 'I'm lost', 'I'm lonely', 'what's the world coming to?', that kind of thing. Whereas Larry actually took the bit between the teeth, and spat out words that upset a lot of people, including Christians. But they were songs with answers not just questions. If when I hear Larry's new album, I like a couple of the songs I have no problem about recording them. But then I know I would do them entirely differently from Larry. We have hopefully mutual respect for each other. Certainly I love what Larry does, I'm never quite sure what he thinks about what I do."

Do you find your motivation to continue on in show business slowly winding down?

"No, I wish it was really. It would be much easier for me to contemplate retirement if my ambition wasn't so great. Every now and then I think to myself 'oh, what the heck, let's leave it to everybody else. Now I'm 51, I've been doing it for 33 years and I've done it as good as anybody else and I've had more hits than most other people put together. So I've got nothing to prove anymore. But the awful thing is I still have this ambition. I mean here I am and I am thinking how will I do my next album? I want to do something special, and I've got a brand new tour coming off at the end of at the year. We've sold 240,000 tickets already, and that's nine months before we start. It keeps going, and my ambition burns. Therefore the idea of retirement crops up every now and then when I'm feeling tired. Then next morning, when I've had a good nights sleep, it's all gone! I can't honestly say I've lost any enthusiasm. I actually like what I do and the more I listen to people talk about rock and roll, the more I want to do it myself because they've all, nearly all of them, got it wrong as far as I'm concerned. I was listening to Jack Good on the radio. He said 'lean, mean and in his teens that's rock and roll'. In other words rock and roll is for teenagers. That's a load of... I love Jack Good; he gave me my first big break. He is the innovator of all innovators; he brought rock and roll to British TV. and therefore to the British public. But to say that rock and roll belongs to the young is no longer a fact. Because those of us who were young when we did it originally have grown up. Rock 'n' roll is not like a passing phase. In other words I still like rock and roll music better than anything I've heard. You can keep Pavarotti, you can keep your classicals, not that I don't like them; I don't prefer them. If I had to make a choice, if I was asked to go on that desert island, with my discs, I wouldn't have any opera singers. It would all be pop-rock. So for someone to say 'lean, mean and in their teens, that's how they have to be' is rubbish. I'm lean and mean but I'm not in my teens.

Rock and roll belongs to me as much as it belongs to the young. Obviously, there's going to come a time when I'll have to sit back and say 'I've done my bit, you take over now' But in the meantime, although I may stop singing it, I won't stop liking it. I'll still be out buying my CD's I'll still be at home playing rock. Some of it will be contemporary, and sometimes I'll be digging back to the Everly Brothers and Elvis. But I won't stop liking it. It's the music that gives me goose bumps."

How important to you are the lyrics you sing?

"You have to be discerning about lyrics. It's like any form of entertainment, it deals with the most common factor in life and that's love. So you find that ninety nine point nine percent of songs are about love -losing it, finding it, whatever. Once you understand that, within that there will be deviations, where we can justifiably say this is bad influence for our young. More than just sexual overtones, I've heard a number of rap records where what they're saying is really bad. I have got used to use my discernment about lyrics. If a song says let's all jump into bed together or let's live together but not bother about marriage' then as a Christian I'm not going to record that song. I know what God would have me present, what God would have us present is a good, wholesome, healthy approach to love and sex. The difficulty as a Christian is you sometimes have to turn down a song because it has something that you can't change. Fortunately in the position I'm in I can change lyrics. I do it blatantly now. 'Devil Woman' is a great example. I turned it from a guy who got involved with the occult. I added things like 'stay away', 'beware the Devil' woman' 'she's gonna get you', 'you'd better get out of there fast.' By doing that it became a warning against the occult. It wasn't difficult to do and the writer didn't mind. I re-wrote a couple of lines in 'The Only Way Out'. 'Mistletoe And Wine' - I changed some lyrics. The lyrics said 'snow, smoke a smile and a joke' I changed it to 'love and laughter, joy ever after, ours for the taking if you follow the Master.' Those are my lyrics. I don't make a claim; I didn't say you have to pay me for writing those lyrics. If I don't agree with the entire sentiments in a lyric it seems I'm often permitted to change them."

I understand you have some pretty strong feelings about Madonna.

"I switched Madonna off. I watched that video 'In Bed With Madonna' I am no prude, I've done it all, we've all done it all, we've all been sinners and we still are in our minds to a great extent. But when I saw that video I heard language and dialogue that I can only assume would be in a pornographic film. So I switched it off. I've never done it before, ever. I'm talking about someone who's not untalented. I just disagree with Madonna's presentation. I find it very hard to respect Madonna. I can't imagine what it would be like to be in her company. Because on that video she was so grossly vulgar that I couldn't bear it anymore and I switched it off. We may think Madonna is terrific. I think she's talented; she dances great, she looks O.K., she sings quite well and she's made some really good records. Yet she does this video and I have to say regardless of how I feel about her talent, I am going to switch it off. That's what Christians have to do."

Aren't you concerned that views like that might be costly to you, that you might lose popularity as a result of them?

"I can't be bothered, Tony. Yes it might do. I'm 51 now so I feel my age permits me to be fairly eccentric. I've learned that over the years. You listen to people like Robert Morley. Gentlemen of that genre who do a talk show are wonderful eccentric elderly characters who can say the most outrageous things. They don't always mean it of course. I mean it this time though. I feel we are living in a society where if you look around we are accepting more and more things that are absolutely out of the window. They shouldn't be acceptable. We have people on our television who are not good enough; they're not good enough to be TV hosts or pop singers. They have nothing to offer. Generally speaking you'll find after six months they disappear. Nevertheless in that six-month period they've taken up some valuable space that could have been used in a different way. We seem to be a very perverse society. We give platforms to people who have no artistic right to be there. I know that art is subjective. But I've done Top Of The Pops' with people and thought 'this guy doesn't sing, he doesn't look good, he can't move, and he's drunk.' so, what is he doing on the box? All he's doing is bringing what I consider to be a very, very valuable art form down to dregs' level."

Do you wish that your overtly Christian material sold like your mainstream hits?

"I did get a gospel album into the Top Ten -my first one ever - because I didn't tell anyone 'Now You See Me...Now You Don't' was gospel. That's the problem with the world, you have to find your way round. I just played the tracks to the EMI crowd, they said 'oh, great, The Only Way Out' that sounds like a single.' I said fine. It didn't click with them, and I didn't say anything. I thought 'OK, I'll continue recording the album. So nine of the 11 songs or 10 of the 12, something like that, were gospel songs, Christian rock and roll songs. So it went ahead and The Only Way Out' was a Top Ten single and the album was a Top Ten hit. So I had my first ever Christian album in the Top Ten. There's great discrimination when it comes to Christian music. Deejays find it very hard to play things that are overtly Christian. That's why it was so wonderful for me when 'Mistletoe And Wine' and 'Saviour's Day' made number one. They were unashamedly Christian songs and in a way it was out of the hands of both the deejays and journalists because the public liked them and they were going to buy them anyway. And they did. It meant our nation was listening to Christian Christmas lyrics. But it's very hard to do that, I don't expect to do that again".

Do you like contemporary praise and worship?