Dr Joseph D'Souza

In a truly memorable interview Dr Joseph D' Souza, an extraordinary man of courage, shared live on Cross Rhythms radio of his work with the Dalit people in India. If you've seen Slumdog Millionaire you'll get an idea of what these people suffer. Joseph D' Souza is making a huge difference as the International Pesident of the Dalit Freedom Network. Jonathan Bellamy chatted with him about the Dalits and about his work.

Jonathan: We're going to talk a lot about India and so I wanted to begin by asking you briefly what you think of the Congress Party? They've recently been elected haven't they, with one of the biggest majorities and number of seats?

Dr D'Sousa: In recent times yes. They got about two hundred and ten along with their allies; they're just about ten seats short, I think they're all happy for five years of stability ahead of us.

Jonathan: Is that something within the nation that people were concerned about - not having stability?

Dr D'Sousa: Very much so. I mean all of the projections was for a fractured verdict - coalition of twenty/thirty parties all bargaining for their little piece, and then you know they can all make reforms and development; the things that needed to be done get hampered because of that. And so that's a big worry; also because of the anti Christian violence and persecution of the last year. You know the security of minorities and the Dalits is such a big issue. A stable government and the congresses commitment to provide security I think helped a lot. Helped quite a bit.

Jonathan: Now you work very much on behalf of the Dalit people group in India. Can you tell us a little bit about the Dalits?

Dr D'Sousa: The Dalits were originally called untouchables and that is how the world remembers them. Unfortunately the world thinks that, you know after independence, the caste system went out of India and the Dalit problem was solved and the problem of untouchability was solved. That's not true. Sixty years after independence we still have two hundred and fifty million Dalits - untouchables. They're outside of the caste system and they're treated as less than human beings. Sub human. In eighty percent of Indian villages today, caste system is strictly enforced. Untouchability is strictly enforced. What does that mean? That means a Dalit child gets up in the morning; he can't go to the village well, common village well, and draw water on a hot summer day, because if he touches the water, the water gets polluted. It means that the Dalits stay on their side of the village, and the upper class stay on the other side of the village. In fact in places like Tamil Nadu it's supposed to be developed. If an upper class group is coming on the road and the Dalits are walking on this side of the road, the Dalits all go flat on the ground, on the mud and become dirty because they don't want their shadow to fall on the upper class and the upper class get polluted.

Jonathan: That's extraordinary, because from our western mindset we would have thought things like that only took place in age old civilisations in the past. But that happens in India today?

Dr D'Sousa: It not only happens in India; our current Prime Minister was going to be Prime Minister again for the next five years, in December 2007 he said that untouchability is equal to apartheid it's a blot against humanity. There is recognition. We got a serious racial slave system going on in India and we need to do something about it.

Jonathan: So the party - the Congress Party actually could be very positive you think for the Dalits?

Dr D'Sousa: With the current Prime Minister I think they're going to be more positive than ever before. There's been a tendency to give spin and deny what's going on in international circles. But he became the first Prime Minister to publicly admit we have a problem.

Jonathan: What's the root of this mindset of untouchables?

Dr D'Sousa: The mindset comes out of a theology and a religious world view. A text in some of the scriptures which teaches that God is the one who makes human beings in a hierarchy of pollution and purity and impurity. And God created the Brahmins from his head and some from his shoulder. The rulers and the business class from his belly, and those are the pure parts of his body. They all have all rights. Then the same God because of karma in a past life created fifty percent of India from his legs which are the low caste. And then the same God has twenty five percent of the population the Dalits who are not even created from his body because their karma in past life is so bad, in this life they are created and they're the most polluted and most sinful of all people. And for them to mix and mingle and marry and touch is out of the question; and by birth they are given the filthiest jobs and occupations.

Jonathan: So is that from a Hindu theology?